DEI Lessons Beyond The Bubble - Transcript
Public Media For All is proud to share insights from Terra Gray, Principal Transformation Consultant at Equitable Dinners Design Team, and Anzio Williams, Senior Vice President of Diversity Equity and Inclusion at NBC Universal Local. Terra Gray and Anzio Williams will share how they are implementing diversity, equity and inclusion in their work.
Watch the recording of the DEI Lessons Beyond The Bubble webinar or read the transcript below.
Transcript of the webinar courtesy of Kelsey Page, who kindly volunteered her time and expertise to make this resource more accessible.
00:00:00
JC Polk:
Welcome everyone, welcome welcome. Come on in and get settled. Find your seat, as we would normally say. Don't be afraid to sit up front, there's no bad views. [music in background] For those who don't know, I am JC Polk. And on behalf of Public Media For All today, I want to welcome you to our quarterly webinar. Today, we are happy to bring you some names that we've thrown back and forth with a lot of different ways, but bottom line, these are DEI lessons beyond and outside of the bubble, and that bubble being public media. What we have found in our work, as we found that started about this time last year, is that one of our most powerful tools is to be able to share stories. And out of those stories we found that there's a desire for tangible action items that people who have decided to commit to the work of DEI or are considering doing the work of DEI, that we begin to share those tangible items so people can take the next step. Now that you've made the commitment to the tenets of public media, we want to give you some tools to be able to move forward. And so we're going to jump right in there today.
We're very fortunate to have two individuals, two highly acclaimed individuals that are outside of our public media bubble, which felt like would give some insight and some other ideas that we might not otherwise naturally have the inclination to entertain. So we've invited them and they've joined us. And we decided to do it in a pretty creative way. We're gonna have the privilege of doing a hybrid recorded and live webinar for you today. We're going to start off, we’re gonna, like I said, dive right in shortly with two videos. And then we're going to conclude today's event with a live question and answer with one of our guests. First, one of the-- our guests are going to be brother Anzio Williams from NBC Universal, and then we also have Lady Gay, Terra Gay, who is also a consultant that has been doing a lot of work in the space of DEI for a long time. And so we're going to make sure that you hear some great words from them. You're also going to hear from my co-host Aishah Rashied Hyman. Many of you know her from Public Broadcasting Atlanta. She's gonna make an appearance toward the midway point of our webinar today.
Before we-- before I click play and turn it on to everyone, I'll remind everyone again that the question and answer feature is available for your use. We also have enabled the chat so that you can kind of pick up on some links, maybe some great points that you want to do the “amen” to, and some “atta boy”s, or if there's a point in which that you may degree-- I mean, disagree, we encourage you to do that as well, because we know that that helps facilitate healthy conversation that is constructive and allows us to be more productive.
And so with that, the last thing that I will say is that, to our cohort members, reminding you that tomorrow we have our cohort meeting. That's at 4 pm Eastern time. And you should have gotten your email earlier this week, which also had some homework assignments in it. So be sure that you come prepared to again have a productive and constructive conversation exchange with some breakout groups by doing your homework. And it's a very great assignment for you to come in stimulated and ready to contribute. So without further ado, again if you have any questions, any technical problems, by all means hit us in the chat. Right now we're going to go ahead and go to our first video with brother Anzio Williams from NBC Universal.
00:03:22
JC Polk:
[background music] Listen, Anzio, I want to thank you for taking time out and to join Public Media For All with our webinar. This is our quarterly webinar entitled, DEI Lessons Outside of the Bubble. I thought you'd be great to come in and join and share some of your wisdom and experience with some of our stations who've made the decision, or are considering the decision, to make a commitment to work in DEI. One of the things we've known that has happened in our previous webinars is that the strength has been mostly in the stories, and all of us in media can kind of attest to, that there's power in stories. And so, just want to have you on today, man, and kind of share some of your experiences, some of your cautionary tales and how-- and-- you know, that you've seen now as the Vice President of Diversity, Equity, Inclusion for NBC Universal. So thanks for joining us.
Anzio Williams:
Thank you for having me. It's certainly an important topic, and I'd like to say it's a hot topic, but this is not certainly not a new topic.
JC Polk:
Let's set the stage for some of our viewers. We're recording this the Wednesday before the webinar. But can you kind of start us off and give us, kind of like I said, your experience, and to-- and your rise, and what you've seen on your way as Vice President of NBC Universal?
Anzio Williams:
Absolutely. So I'm thankful to say that, NBC Universal, we have a robust, you know, DEI plan and DEI department. You know, it's a fairly big company, you know, it's owned by Comcast. Comcast, you know, has been in the diversity space for quite a while, and NBC Universal, we can all-- we can go all the way back to 1984 to find the first person who had DEI in their title in the company.
So we have a history of DEI. It's not a lot of new things that I have come up with since coming into the space. What we've done is take a strong look at, what did we do before in the past? How did we operate before in the past? Where did we fall short on some of those efforts? Now let's put our foot to the gas pedal and say, okay, all right, hey, here's something that worked. Let's move forward with this. Here's some things that didn't work let's kind of, you know, come--, you know, come out of it. And then we also just take a look at things through what we call measurability and accountability. You know, we want to make sure we're measuring everything that we do, number one, and number two is, make sure that, you know, that there's some accountability at the end of it so that we can actually get work done.
JC Polk:
Yeah, you know, the first thing that I can imagine that some of our attendees are thinking about today is, you know, yeah, this is NBC Universal, you know, we recognize them as a commercial station versus our public media station. But what would you share to say, what are some of the similar, whether it be difficulties or some of the similar challenges that might exist both as a member-based public media station and a commercial-- in a commercial station, such as-- or the corporate side of NBC Universal?
Anzio Williams:
You know, the thing that is similar is our most valuable assets, which is our people. And this is all about people and how we treat people. And we want to make sure that we are leading. So this is the, you know, the essence of leadership. DEI is more than race. You know, a lot of people right now just, you know, are really gravitating towards just the race thing. But we have so many people that be, and want to belong, in different organizations and different categories, and see and identify themselves as such. So we have to make sure that we as leaders are valuing contrast and we're valuing differences, you know, and bringing those contrasts and differences and making that a part of our organization.
You know, people always talk about the good old boy network. And people think the good old boy network is, white men hire white men. And I say, the good old boy network is just people hiring folks who look like them and think like them. And so what we have to do is break out of that. So no matter what, you know, public, you know, media or what have you, it doesn't-- you know, or big-- you know, or big media commercial stations, it's really all the same. How do we-- you know, we know we have diverse audiences that-- we know we have diverse folks that we're trying to reach. How do we have those diverse ways of thinking and those diverse folks in the room when we're making decisions, when we're having conversations about stuff? So DEI has to be in your DNA.
DEI has to be in your DNA and what you're doing. It can't be something that you reach out and you-- you know, it's not a hat, it's not a t-shirt that you can put it on and take it off when you want to. I say it all the time in our organization. DEI is not the Nike slogan, “just do it.” You can't take it off and on when you want to. It has to be in you, not on you. It has to be in you. You have to believe in it and you have to understand the values of it in order for you, you know, you to have a successful, you know, business.
JC Polk:
And now I want to hear more, a little bit, about your-- how you arrived at NBC Universal to get a little bit about your background. But in that, as you recount that, tell us, you know, some of the consistent experiences or challenges or successes that you've seen with DEI work, whether it's a slow-- you know, kind of like a crock pot slow cooking, or whether it's been something that you've seen not happen, and still be existent. And did you anticipate that challenge as you continued to arrive where you are now?
Anzio Williams:
So I'm a content person by trade. I graduated from North Carolina A&T State University and, you know, HBCU, from Durham, North Carolina. I came into the business as a producer. I did sports, I produced newscasts, I've lived in, you know, more cities and states than I can remember. But I was a newscast producer. I am a content person, you know, at the end of the day. And so arriving at stations, you know, now-- you know, I just finished up in Philadelphia. Those two stations, the NBC and Telemundo station in Philly was my 11th and 12th television stations that I had physically worked at.
And I remember each time, going to a station, that's a lot of onboarding. And everybody had their different ways of onboarding. But I remember, you know, kind of walking in, being the only one. Everybody's heard that, right, being the only one. I remember kind of walking in, trying to find my way, trying to figure my way out. And so the onboarding is very critical in what we're doing. Onboarding is key, and how we bring people in and how we have them-- how do we train them the right way. And so I tell people all the time that, you know, I struggle with the idea that a lot of people look at it as, okay, let's just throw them in the deep end. Sink or swim type mentality. Well, guess what? The newer generations, they're not putting up with that sink or swim mentality, you know.
So as I talk to leaders, I say hey, you know, if you came up in that sink or swim type mentality, you know, how does that work today? You know, and I've done it, you know, listen, I was taught that. It was done to me. I did it to other people. As I got towards my-- you know-- the last, I would say, eight years, I realized that in order to have healthy employees, we had to support them better. We needed better training on the front end, we needed-- how do we help them join our employee resource groups, that we call ERGs, so that they can, you know, identify with groups and identify with other people? But, how do we make sure that we train them and set them up for success, versus throwing them in the deep end of the water?
And that would happen to me. I remember showing up at a station and on my second day I was producing. I could barely tell you who the mayor was and what was, you know-- what part of town did people live in. But I was producing a newscast, you know, because they did not value the idea of setting people up for success, and they did more of trying to do the sink or swim mentality and say, okay, let's see what type of person we have.
JC Polk:
Well, you know, Anzio, you mentioned that you're a product of a HBCU. I'm a product of a HBCU, that being in Elizabeth City State University. And both of us being from Durham, home of North Carolina Central University, and North Carolina, which has one of the highest concentrations of Historically Black Colleges and Universities. We know they’re throughout the country. I personally feel like there are a lot of resources that exist for stations, especially those who say they have a hard time converting their hiring practices to be more focused to be in this diversity realm. What say you about HBCUs, the products that are there, and potentially how they can serve as leaders and resources for a lot of the stations that are doing this work we call storytelling?
Anzio Williams:
I'm glad you asked. This is one that's certainly near and dear, you know, to me as a graduate from North Carolina A&T State University, and that lacked resources, you know, on the campus. But someone was able to come find me and say, oh wow, you know, here's what I got for North Carolina A&T. For a long time it's been a secret. It's been a secret, and I have benefited from that secret. You know, everybody else was ignoring HBCUs, and I was going to them, you know, whether that was Howard, Hampton, Morgan State, FAMU, North Carolina A&T, you know, listen. I've been crossing this country going to HBCUs, finding great talent. And so at the end of the day, you know, I'm glad that that the secret is out, I will no longer be selfish. But I will tell you, if you have an HBCU in your market, you know, if you continue to ignore them, and I will continue to come there and get these great people.
You know, I'm so proud that, you know, we're one week removed from, you know, the announcement of Johnny Green, Jr., as the general manager of WCBS, you know, in New York. I hired him from North Carolina Central, you know. And North Carolina Central, even though-- it's 1997 or ‘98 when I hired a young man right out of college, and now he's the general manager at WCBS in New York. And so we know that great talent is coming out of these universities. And I wish that, you know, we had more near some of the stations that we own. But that doesn't stop us from going and investing in these universities, investing in these students, and make sure they know who we are before they even graduate.
JC Polk:
Yeah, and you mentioned, you know, with your production background, many of our stations have newsrooms, and one of the challenges that they are seeing is how-- what the impact has been of DEI work being infused into daily reporting and adhering to a lot of those journalistic fundamentals in that reporting. Can you share with our group a little bit about maybe how you all have dealt with that, and maybe some key points in which they can take away, to take back into their newsrooms, understanding that again, we have both broadcast newsrooms and we're also in the radio space with NPR.
Anzio Williams:
Yeah so, absolutely. So those who are running newsrooms, you know, you certainly understand that the idea of editorial meetings and collaboration in what we do, it's certainly important that we're having good healthy conversation and discussions on the front end versus the back end. And a lot of times in in our profession we like to have what we call postmortems, where we value these conversations, these long conversations, on the back end. And I'm saying, no, let's have those great conversations on the front end to prevent those mistakes at all. To prevent-- you know, if you're having a, you know, you find a coach just having long conversations in the locker room after the game? They lost. They lost. You know, we would prefer to, you know, to pop bottles of champagne in the locker room after the game. So we want to have those great conversations on the front end.
What does it take to have, you know, a great conversation? And that is, having the right people around the table, you know. And so it's what I call, how do you have, you know, diversity? You know, one, you know, you need diversity around the table. It has to [inaudible]. So when you're having these discussions, you want to make sure that you're talking about the right things that matter to the people who they're impacted, that is impacted by it.
If you don't have diversity on the table, if you're not where you need to be, then at least have inclusion. And you can have inclusion without diversity. It doesn't replace, you know, the diversity, but you can achieve it. So let's say for instance, you know, I'm running an editorial meeting and we're talking about LGBT rights, and I'm looking around the table and there's nobody LGBT at the table. So, okay, I have to find it immediately, right then and there. That means if I got to call somebody from sales or call somebody from creative services or call somebody, you know, from engineering, like, hey, can you join in on this discussion? If I don't see them, then hey, I know I got somebody in my phone I can call like, hey, we're having this news discussion, this content discussion, do you mind joining us? So that you can vet your your ideas, that your ideas are challenged. You know, you've been able to, you know, have a good conversation around it, and with that, by achieving that inclusion, what you've done now is, if you have reduced the risk of mistakes. You hopefully you have brought more creativity to it, hopefully your plan is more vetted and what you want to do.
So when you lack inclusion, you know, you really are setting yourself up for failure, all day long, you know. So I tell people, it is, you know, inclusion-- diversity equity and inclusion is a good business plan all together. And when people see that and they feel it, you know, you-- it'll vibrate through the organization.
JC Polk:
Absolutely. Well one of the things we know as we return to some semblance of normalcy at our stations, many of us have been out of the station, even if it were, you know, not our direct newsrooms who have steadily continued to report, but now we have auxiliary departments coming back into the station. Are you all having conversations about what that looks like after this past year, the year of reckoning and things like that, and have you did you all institute any fundamental principles in your DEI work that is going to help you return in a better situation?
Anzio Williams:
Absolutely, you know, again, part of the DEI work is making sure that people feel valued and they feel comfortable, and when they are working, that they-- when they come to work, they feel like they can, you know, not only bring them whole selves, but they can speak up and speak out when need be. And so we had to adjust during the pandemic. All of a sudden now we're all-- we used to be sitting around in the room, and now we're sitting on Teams and Zooms calls all day long, these virtual calls. The tough thing about these virtual calls is, it's hard to read the room as a leader. It's hard to lead it. So we had to actually figure that out over the last, you know, 17 months. It's like, all right, how did you get-- you can't see someone's hands, you can't see their knees shaking. So you don't know, you can't, you know, actually feel it like you can in a room.
And now we are going back into the office and we're gonna have somewhat of a hybrid. That means you're gonna have people sitting around the table and you have people at home sitting on Zoom and Teams calls. So how do you not have the folks that maybe are not in the room feel left out? That's a new-- that's going to be a new thing. So we're talking about that. We're talking to leaders about how to read the room, and how to make sure that we're including others that's in other rooms, if you will. And that's important. And how do we make sure that we're not having side conversations or something that's happening in person that the folks at home can't understand? That's part of that inclusion part. So, you know, so we're having those conversations about what that looks like and making sure that even when we have provide people something at work, that the ones that are at home, we try to provide that to them as well too.
JC Polk:
No I think that's great, and I'm sure that some of the principles you all instilled now are actually-- you're able to build on those. When you go, when you talk about inclusion with your staff, it's not a foreign word, it's not just a new buzz term, it's not in some new initiative that leadership is doing. So you're better prepared to kind of deal with whatever's thrown at you now. What what are some of those other principles that you've instilled, you know, from your position to some of your affiliate stations, that you see have had great success, that allows them to be more efficient, more productive perhaps, and just having a healthier culture?
Anzio Williams:
So we started out last year with our racial justice task force in news content. And so this task force is made up of news leaders digitally, you know, broadcast, NBC and Telemundo. And what we do with the task force is, we've addressed language, we've addressed visuals, pictures, how do we, you know-- how do we operate as a news division in our local television stations? And so we've looked at everything from suspect descriptions, police descriptions, when and where and how do we use mug shots. We've also looked at, you know, how do we make sure that we have diverse people on TV, people of color on TV, more than just in positions of criminal activity? And so we've been intentional about that.
So we've asked all newsrooms to come up with a diverse resource guide. And so those diverse resource guides, some-- most are digitally, some are still old school, you know, in a notebook somewhere in an assignment desk. But everyone has to have a diverse resource guide. Diverse resource guide is, you know, okay yes, you know, where is my, you know, where's my Black dentist at, you know, where is my Asian, you know, female speech pathologist, you know? And how do you have these people already ready so that when you are in the crust of it, when you're in the heart of trying to figure out what you're doing? You know, a reporter has to go do a story. We know that reporters are going to take the paths of least resistance. And sometimes people of color are less hesitant. Ah, you got a camera, you got, you know, a mic, we've seen how we've been treated on TV. They're less likely to want to come out and speak to you, you have to convince them. So reporter very well may not even go that route. They want to go to somebody they know, and how can they get this story real quick. But we want to remove those obstacles and make sure that we have diverse resource guides, that somebody can pick up the phone, call, and now you have, you know, people of color in your shows, your newscast, that, you know, people of color outside of positions of criminal activity.
This is something I talked about earlier that, you know, how do you measure things and how do you be-- and hold people accountable? But we can measure. We can look at a television station’s, you know, product for 24 hours and we can measure how many people of color they've had in their newscast, and in what positions are they in? Are they in positions of criminal activity? Are they in positions of authority, in terms of, are they the mayor, police chief, school superintendent? Are they in positions of expertise? You know, positions of expertise, you know, how-- you know, how many people of color did you-- you know, were you looking for a financial expert today? What do they look like? Did you need a legal perspective, you know, today? Did you need an infectious disease? What did that person look like? You know, when we're doing this the right way, you know, we're not here to kind of cover up with that, hey, we're not gonna do this story because it's a person of color and it's a crime story. No, we're not saying that. What we're saying is, work harder on having people in positions of expertise. Because we understand that we have a responsibility to our community as well, and if kids and adults and anybody, the only time they see somebody that looks like them is that they’re in positions of criminal activity, then we're definitely part of the problem and not part of the solution.
JC Polk:
Well listen, I think you've touched on a lot of great things. What I-- what we always try to end on is always kind of a high note. So if you would leave our attendees with some great final thoughts and some inspirational thoughts, whether it be some successes that you continue to see, anything else as a cautionary tale. But it's basically Anzio's motivational minute, if you will, to kind of close us out.
Anzio Williams:
Oh absolutely. You know, one, I would say be the lead. Lead from the top. This is what we are, we're leaders, you know, here to walk the walk, you know, and be the voice. Make sure that, you know, if you want DEI to really, you know, take hold in your organization, then you have to lead. It has to come from you. You can't hire someone else to kind of come in and just take this part of it and go get it done. You have-- you know, this needs to be a department head person that's sitting, you know, right there beside you that is, you know, not with HR, not with finance, you know, they're an independent, you know, person who can kind of come in. DEI has to be in-- as a leader, it has to be in your heart, or on your mind, or it's going to cost you in your wallet. It has to be in your heart, on your mind, or it's going to cost you in your wallet. And what I mean by that is that it is a good business plan. It has to be, you know, and if you have an off site, you can't have an off site if you haven’t-- hey, you're back to work and we're going to get everybody, all the leaders together and reconvene, you know-- you have to be talking about this or it's going to be a missed element, and it's going to cost you later on, no doubt.
And then I've said it before, that's seeking to understand and then to be understood. You know, we're in this understanding mode for sure. You know, we saw what happened after George Floyd where there was, you know, there was initial, you know, shock and awe, if you would. Everybody was just like, what in the world is going on? And then, from that shock and awe, we all did our audits. We all did our audits. We just, we took-- you know, let's do an assessment test here. Where are we at? What do we have? And now we've gone to that third phase, which, we got to take some action. We got to take some action. So employees are looking for action. So you do want to make sure that you are action oriented, just like you would be in any other part of your plan.
And then just make sure that, you know, as-- if you're trying to choose a DEI leader, I did not come up in the DEI space. I'm a newscast producer who went on to be news managers and runs, you know, television stations, you know, across the country. And so they chose me for this position because I understood the operation, you know, so I'm an operational change agent versus being a D&I expert. That means I'm not going to ask, you know, folks in the newsroom to do something that can't be done, that can't be done. I'm happy to say that at least my DEI training was my personal beliefs, how I was raised, how I was brought up, and that's kind of where I got my DEI space from. But ultimately I understand how we run our television stations, and that's hopefully what also makes me valuable, a valuable asset for the company.
JC Polk:
[background music] Well Anzio Williams, want to definitely thank you. I want to personally thank you as literally my fellow homeboy from Durham, North Carolina. We're all in this work and it's good to see your commitment and what you're doing at a from a high level, and on a large platform to be able to do some of the same work that we're doing in public media. Thank you for your wisdom, thank you for your cautionary tales. Hopefully this won't be the last time we speak with you, and be well.
Anzio Williams:
Thank you very much.
00:28:02
JC Polk:
[background music] And so again, that's Anzio Williams with NBC Universal. He's Senior Vice President for Diversity and Inclusion. It was an honor to have him with us. Hopefully you all took something away. I was in such a rush to get to the video that I failed to give him the proper introduction. So hopefully although he wasn't able to join us today, he'll forgive me in some sense. But I think it's worth noting that he has over 27 years of experience in commercial media. As you heard him say, he's been in the production field. He's actually responsible for developing and making sure that NBC Universal is holding diversity, equity, and inclusion as a top priority within their-- within and throughout their organization. And so for us to be able to have an opportunity to share some thoughts with him I think was very beneficial, and hopefully you were able to take some things away.
Also worth noting that we know that part of what we will do along with this-- the webinar itself will be in its entirety posted to our website, along with some transcription, so that we can make sure that everyone has access to the things that we're sharing here today. And now I'm going to bring in my co-host for the course of the hour, and that's, many of you already know, Ms. Aishah Rashied Hyman from Public Broadcasting Atlanta. And she's going to take us into our next guest. Ms. Aishah.
00:29:29
Aishah Rashied Hyman:
Thank you JC. We are so delighted to have Terra Gay, Principal Transformation Consultant. Terra is an educator, activist, author, entrepreneur. She has over 20 years of professional experience in DEI work with a degree from Emory University. Woot woot! We're Emory alums. We were friends in high school and in college too. Her degree is in African and African-American Studies. Above that, she's got certification in Cultural Diversity and Race Relations Training from Fisk University and Harvard Graduate School of Education. The work that Terra has been doing is local and national, with major brands, major companies-- The King Center, The Learning Channel, Disney, Hasbro, Target, Starbucks, Coca-Cola, United Airlines, Southwest Airlines, The Home Depot, Procter & Gamble, Citibank-- you name the industry, she has worked with a company within that area of focus to help them, to do their DEI work inside their companies. So we are absolutely thrilled to have Terra with us as a special guest for today's webinar, to learn from her experience as a consultant and a curriculum designer, to help us bring transformative diversity, equity, and inclusion solutions and insight to the public media system. Here's our conversation with Terra.
00:30:56
Aishah Rashied Hyman:
Well Terra, I think we should start with some disclosure, some transparency, that we go way back. We go way back to high school days.
Terra Gay:
Yes.
Aishah Rashied Hyman:
Still here, still together, still rabble rousers. So I wanted to talk about that, you know, while the country is going through-- and really the world, really-- is going through a reckoning and dealing with issues of race and equity, for you this is not new. For me it's not new. We actually were -- how do we want to put it -- we were speaking truth to power in our college days.
Terra Gay:
Yes, absolutely. And I think one of the things for-- and, you know, I always laugh when people do the “wait wait, like, how many ways do they go back?” Like, we don't want to count up and tell too much about ourselves, about how many ways we go back. But I would say in all honesty, first of all, thank you for having me and having this conversation for tonight. I think what we have to deal with first is just some misuse of language, because what the nation is dealing with now is certainly not a reckoning.
Aishah Rashied Hyman:
Okay.
Terra Gay:
We are not at a place of reckoning yet. I think we are at a place of heightened awareness, perhaps is more accurate to say. But the fact that you would have this many people who are opposed to what they are erroneously calling critical race theory, the fact that you would have a university that has denied a woman tenure and then all of a sudden, through public pressure, then felt the need to give her tenure -- I think we have to be honest with ourselves that we are certainly not at a place of reckoning, because reckoning requires a level of honesty with who we've been, who we are, and then really being conscientious about who is it that we wish to become.
And I'm not certain that people are yet ready to have the true honest conversations of who we've been, and certainly have limited experiences of talking about who we are, and so therefore have even greater limitations when we have to start imagining who we’d like to become. So I do think that that's part of our issue, is that we try to leap to a place where we are not. And so you even have some people who talk about reconciliation when you've not even had acknowledgement of the wrongdoing. So I do think that we have to be cautious about using language more accurately and actually calling ourselves to question the things of who we are, who we'd like to become, and, more importantly, who have we been, when we talk about the opportunity for reckoning. But I think that's where we are more realistically, than actually being at a reckoning.
Aishah Rashied Hyman:
Thank you for that. So, what-- when you talk about what's happening in our country, what-- like, what phrase do you use, or how do you just-- you know, like if you had to give it a couple of words? Can you even--
Terra Gay:
Sure. Again, I think it is in a space that we have a heightened awareness
Aishah Rashied Hyman:
Heightened awareness, okay.
Terra Gay:
And so I don't think that, you know, when people were left with no other option to look away, their awareness about conditions that they had not had to consider before, and certainly even beyond the racial reckoning, when we look at the pandemic and what it revealed to us, certain people in certain communities have always known these disparities existed, and other people have had the luxury -- and I do not call it a privilege, because it should not be a privilege for any group of people to be in a space that they are able to ignore the overwhelming conditions that leave other people in a place of disparity.
And so what I think we found ourselves is at a place where we had no options to look away, and you were forced to look at things that you have not had to examine, to consider, or even really want to do anything about. And so I do think that is where we are, when you have a heightened awareness for people that has emerged as a result of the pandemic, as a result of the things and the murders that have taken place related to police brutality, that certainly has created a greater awareness of things. But again, awareness has not moved all people yet to a place of action, which is again why I caution us of saying we're at a place of reckoning, because reckoning requires action. It requires you to do some things that are done-- that have not been done before, or certainly in a different way than you've done them before. And I don't know that we're quite at that particular place.
Aishah Rashied Hyman:
So let's talk about you, just personally, just for a bit. So if you can recall or remember, for you personally, do you remember the first time you realized or understood race or racism?
Terra Gay:
The first time I became aware of it, I was actually being nosy in a great aunt's house. She had what um some Black people will understand as a cedar chest, where most Black people who are older held all their valuables. And so in my journey to have a play date in her house, I went into the cedar chest. And in there, there was an image of her brother, who had been murdered by white people in Alabama. Some of them were police officers but others were just townspeople. And the picture was a horrific image that was provided to her as a family for identification of him, and he had been beaten so severely that one of his eyes had come out of the socket and was laying on his cheek. So that was the picture. And so when I found, it at first I didn't think it was a human person, because at five, you just really don't have a way to comprehend what it is that you're looking at when you look at what you understand a human face to look like, and now you're looking at this image.
And so it was the first time that I had an understanding, as much as I could process at five, around the issues of race. Because what had led to his death was, he was dating a woman that was considered a mulatto woman, by their terminology because I certainly know that that term may not be accurate or in certain communities even offensive. But at that time that is how they described this woman, who was also light enough or almost white enough to have dated some of these white men. So they were under the impression that he was having the temerity to date a white woman, which is what led to his death.
So for me, it is what-- the first time I came to almost fear, also, that this issue around race, that there was a place that I was supposed to be in, and if I dare step out of that place this could also be my fate. And at five, that is what really led me on my journey of my relationship with, really, the identification of whiteness, and what are some of the consequences when those of us who are not identified as white step outside of those spaces that they consider acceptable.
Aishah Rashied Hyman:
The reason I asked that question is because I do think it's important for all of us to understand that issues of race really impact us early on in life, really early on in life, and impact our whole world view and how we think about race and how we interact with each other. So that's why I always like to ask that kind of question in conversations like these. And the next question I want to ask is, when did you realize that you were going to be a transformation agent? That's how I think about you, an agent of change, specifically in your DEI work. When did you realize that?
Terra Gay:
I think I'm in a process of still realizing it, quite honestly, because it is very challenging work. It challenges every part of your spirit and your being, when you are constantly having to examine just how vastly racism and white supremacy is able to permeate, not only this shore, but also globally, its impact around the world, so that even in those spaces where white, as a culture, does not exist, the way in which white supremacy still impacts those communities still is universally similar to what we have experienced, being those of us who are American.
And so as a part of my work around-- or even considering myself, using your terminology, as a transformation change agent, I think it was really, truly, Aishah, about the accepting that there was a call and a purpose to what I was supposed to be doing in this world, and that I could no longer avoid that. Because like I said, equity work isn't certainly not for the faint at heart. It requires that you are constantly asking yourself to be willing to give of people what you are asking in return, which means there you have to be able to listen, even when you disagree with the stories that you are hearing. But you have to make space for other people's lived experiences to be heard and to understand that for them, even if it is not -- in the grand scheme of other considerations -- always true, it is true always to them.
And so making space for that requires a different way that you even come into that space. It means that I don't lose my humanity in the process, but at the same time I have to make enough room for other people and their humanity to coexist with me. And that's extremely challenging. Because in the world that we come from, much of it is about, how do I make sure I assert myself and take up as much room as I possibly can, independent of who else is in the space with me? And so when you come from that mindset, that's a tremendous shift that you have to make to be able to function and to do this work well.
Aishah Rashied Hyman:
So I would love for you to talk about Equitable Dinners, what it is, how it works, and maybe talk-- share a story about one of the most impactful Equitable Dinners that you've been a part of.
Terra Gay:
So Equitable Dinners was something that I was asked to join as a part of the work that I had started to do with The King Center and their Beloved Community Talks, which is a series that we continue to do that really are looking at ways in which we bridge the racial divides that really separate many communities. And out of that was a relationship that got started with Out of Hand Theater, and then they wanted to move forward with the creation of Equitable Dinners, which again was an extension of some work from Dr. Dietra Hawkins and some other people who had done some of this work similarly in Chicago and then brought it here to Decatur. And then they continued to do that, and then the world changed and they couldn't do them in person, and so they moved virtually to do that. I subsequently joined them as a member of their design team, and so much of my work with them now is working with a few of us who think about, where are the areas of inequities that we want to address? Who are the people we think as experts who can come and bring those conversations to bear and bring information to light for the audience who comes in to join us? And then, how do you facilitate courageous conversations for people to be having around that particular issue?
I would say the one that touched me the most certainly was personal because, as you know, my 25-year-old nephew was killed by police officers. And so there was one that we were talking about the relationship with police, and we were talking about the role of police officers. And so I typically lead people into taking a breath before we go into the conversations, or go into the facilitated conversation with the guests for that evening. And in the moment it was hard for me to catch my breath, because it was a reminder of the moment of losing my nephew, and knowing exactly how I had to actually retrain my brain to think, I mean, and to breathe actually, after his loss.
So I think that one probably is the one that sticks out the most to me because it was the one that I said I felt like I lost myself in the moment, because I could not not feel his presence in that conversation, and then after that play where the young woman loses her father to police officers and couldn't understand why he wasn't coming home. So I think that's the one that stands out the most, but they've been phenomenal conversations and incredible experts who've joined and led conversations for people. I've met people from all over the world, quite honestly, in those facilitated spaces, when we go into the facilitated conversations. So I'm excited about the continuation of that work.
Out of that, we've also launched -- and I think it has a place here -- we've launched an equity institute that looks at art as a form of activism. And so myself, Cicely Garrett, as well as Adria Kitchens, the three of us designed this institute that allows for people to come in and consider where are their talents and skills, and specifically, if you are an artist, how do you harness those skill sets to actually now move to a space of activism and addressing issues of equity within your community, whether that's your art community, whether it's your actual lived community. So I've been excited about that work as well, and the extension of things that we've been able to do with that.
Aishah Rashied Hyman:
Well, that's one of the reasons why I really was excited about having you as a special guest for Public Media For All, because of the creativity that you bring to your DEI work. And we work in a very creative platform, radio, and then television as well. So thinking about public radio, NPR stations, and public television stations, PBS stations, across the country, what would you say to station managers, or even people who aren't station leadership or station managers but who really want to either start DEI work inside of their organization or want to support that work-- what guidance would you give us? What would you say to us is the important reason, the foremost reason, for us to commit to DEI inside of our organizations?
Terra Gay:
Well I think from an art perspective, and certainly from a media perspective, I think we have a responsibility to be doing this work. Because what we have found is that so often, art leads people in shifting a community and kind of a rural view. And so having that responsibility, I think we also have the duty to ensure that when we are given the opportunity to lead this work, we need to be doing so. But we also need to be very critical about how we do that work. It is not -- and I've seen many people post that they've gone through a six or eight week training on equity work -- that might be great for starting, but it doesn't mean that those people should now be leading your work around equity. Because it takes a lot more than six to eight weeks to really fully understand the nuanced ways in which equity has to show up.
I think the other thing people have to be able to do is to be honest with themselves as to, what is it that they truly are willing to give up in order for them to achieve equity, but also consider, what do they gain in the process? Because the reality is, equity is not an additive kind of um thing that you just put on top. So if you were baking a cake, so to speak, it is not the icing on the cake. It actually requires that you deconstruct that cake. You figure out, what were the ingredients. You then decide, is this even the flavor that I wanted my cake to be? Because if not, what changes must I make to my recipe? And it is being clear that there are some pieces of that cake that still require exact measurements. So it requires that you have all of the ingredients, which means all of the people who make up your community should be reflected in your boards, in your leadership roles, and in other spaces.
And again, color is not inclusion. And so when I say that, I find that oftentimes people think that somehow people who are non-white escape the impact of racism, and they don't come into a space and function the same way white people who've been exposed to racism might function. So there are some of us who enjoy being the unicorn, meaning we enjoy being the only one in the room of the other people who don't look like us, who don't bring the same background as us, and we lose, sometimes, touch with those of us who are in communities that are not given the same opportunities. When we are in those spaces as the only, we should be asking ourselves the same questions I would dare ask white people to consider. If you are in a space and you continue to be in spaces that only have people who look like you, who come from the same values as you, then somehow you are missing the greatest opportunity that is available to you, which is the ability to have perspectives that guide and shape you and give you creation.
And so that would be what I would suggest for all of us, independent of your racial or cultural identity, continue to look in spaces and examine. If there's not enough difference here, why is it not here? How do I make it so? And how do I make it that it is valued when it comes here? It cannot simply be about-- and I challenge a lot of people because many people have achieved what they’ve believed is inclusion. And inclusion for many of us has only meant, we have invited you in to see up close how racism functions. It does not mean we had intentions around reducing what the conditions were that kept you from being here in the first place. We just make it more challenging for you to remain here.
And that has to be something that changes. And that only happens when you bring in people who are the right kind of equity leaders, who will challenge you but not demonize you, who will push you on issues without making sure-- er, making you feel like you're being lost in a process. They will constantly be including you and holding you yet accountable to the things that you say that you wish to accomplish when it comes to equity. And truly, equity is going to require change. It cannot simply be something we look to put on and check a box and think that we are done. I joke all the time about The Rock and his videos of him working out, and I say, my God, how many-- what other muscle can he be developing? But what I also understand is, it comes to a place that, yes, you can get to what he is physically, but if you don't continue to work, you don't sustain what you've built. So it's the same thing with equity. We can get there and actually possibly achieve it. But if you don't continue to do the work on an ongoing basis to sustain it, then it will still have a slipping back into places where we find equity did not exist before.
So that would be what I would encourage people to do. Find the right equity persons. If you think I'm the right one, hey, call me. But-- or, find other people who, truly and honestly, who will push you to the place of where you'd like to be when it comes to this work that you wish to accomplish. And they should even say, when you tell me where you think you want to go, I should ask you five other things you may not have considered, and what else could you possibly be doing with equity work?
Aishah Rashied Hyman:
So as you've said, this is hard work. This is long-term work. This is not quick work. And organizations, people get stuck in the work. What have you seen-- is there even kind of a common hurdle, a common place where organizations or individuals kind of get to a point where it's just like a brick wall, and they have a hard time moving forward? And then what do you recommend that they do to get unstuck?
Terra Gay:
So where most people are being stuck is, one, you have the pure mental and spiritual exhaustion of people of color who've already been dealing with these issues, who now feel as though, you're asking me to continue to reopen a wound that I'm not sure you're really trying to heal, versus you just want to see what it looks like when it's opened up. And then you, on the other hand, have other people who've never had to really consider these things, who also have mental and spiritual exhaustion because they never realize how much they just did not know, and now the knowing comes with a price and a responsibility. So you can't ever go back and retreat and pretend like you don't know what you now have come to know. And so that is where I'm finding most people in this work are really struggling. How do we, each of these groups, get beyond their own spiritual and mental exhaustion around the work that is going to be required to do this?
And then I would say the third thing that I have found is that largely ,none of us have a blueprint of what equity looks like. We've all talked about equality, we all understand by definition what equity should be. But we have no blueprint to say, aha, 10 years ago this community decided to do this work and they've been doing it with excellence for the last 10 years. There are very few communities that you can point to or organizations that have done this well. And I think what we find is, especially in media, is, it is the thing that is great for advertising right now, but at some point it has-- it has an expiration date. And so we have to be committed in this space around media to say that, actually, equity doesn't come with expiration. It may come with exhaustion, but it should never come with expiration.
So we must continuously be asking ourselves, what is next for us? Because there's always a next. For whatever group you think that you're creating equity for, there's another group behind them or with them that have been fighting for them to have the same access that they're now giving for themselves. And so that's what we have to also be able to do, and that is, again, asking ourselves the constant question, what else should we be doing? How else should we be moving? What else should we be considering in order for equity being realized?
And I think a lot of people think putting people -- because you've seen a lot of that happen in this last year and a half -- the insertion of Black people in certain roles of leadership, and those roles come without full support. They may come with limited salaries, because we also recognize that that is still an inequitable place for us, that people give us the titles without the compensation, and/or without the authority to really make difference. And so again we have to also move from that place of equity work being simply performative. And in a space of media, we certainly know how to perform. But we’ve got to push ourselves to actually being authentic in this work, as opposed to just being performers who know how to show up and act the role that this is important, and actually-- not actually moving forward to make this actionable.
So your question was also about, how do I-- what do I do when I find this is happening? I think, really and truly, Aishah, the thing that I have found that most people haven't done is, they didn't learn how to listen. And so much of what I end up doing is taking people back through a process of listening, repeating to them, here's what I heard you say, but here's how I received it when I heard it, and did it-- how does that resonate with you when you hear it back for someone else? And I think if we got to that work, of really saying, I am listening in a different way, listening-- and there's an exercise we used to do in a training, of concentric circles, where the one person is only allowed to speak, and they must only listen to the other person talking. That's a different way than most of us have ever processed, because most of us are constantly thinking, here's what my response is going to be, as soon as that person begins to talk, even sometimes with our body language we do it.
And so it is taking people through a process that listening actually requires you say nothing. Listening actually requires that you get quiet. It requires that sometimes your silence is not about you denying something, it is actually about giving people grace to process what I've just heard. And so it is also teaching people the tools of understanding, how listening and silence functions, as opposed to how and what we believe it has once meant for other people.
And so I definitely think that has been where I've been trying to get to next, in terms of the listening process, but also challenging people on what they want to expose. I also work in a space working with children, and I've developed things, and whether it's been curriculum, whether it's activities, I've actually worked with some actors to actually produce some short plays for kids to understand around race. I do think we have a caution-- we have to be cautious about what information we're revealing to children and when. Because there is a capacity that their hearts, their spirits, and their minds have to be able to process things. So I appreciate that you asked me about my first time. At age five I had limitations on what my heart, mind, and body could actually hold in terms of information around race and racism.
So I do think that truth is something we owe our children, but we have to be conscious about how we provide that truth and when we provide that truth to our children, that it does not somehow stifle their abilities to see themselves fully in the world, as opposed to being afraid to be full in the world. And so I do think that's the next phase of my work, really beginning to dig deeper into, how do we have a consciousness of care, is what I've called it, around how we provide children truth around the issues, so that they are ones who are moving as adults in anti-racism, but not stifled by racism itself and that they just withdraw from the whole process. Because I do think that happens for some children.
Aishah Rashied Hyman:
My goodness, there was so much in that conversation that I'd love to unpack. And we have to save some time for the Q&A, because I'm sure that our attendees have lots of questions for you too, so stick with us. But I do want to say, thank you so much, Terra. We are so glad to have you here for this conversation. And now we're going to go to the next part of our program.
Terra Gay:
[background music] Thank you so much.
00:56:36
Aishah Rashied Hyman:
All right, well, thank you again, Terra Gay and Anzio Williams. We have just a few minutes left to take a couple of questions and I want to get to it right away. The first question is from Sachi Kobayashi, one of the founders of Public Media For All. What lessons can we learn from Black, Indigenous, and People of Color communities and culture to help heal divides in the country right now that are perhaps driven by white culture or white supremacy? I'm gonna-- I just added that to Sachi's question. The notion of divide and conquer, I guess.
Terra Gay:
So I think there's a couple things, that one of them being the first for me-- first of all let me say thank you, and thank you to some of you all who've had comments in the chat and/or questions, so thank you all so much for that. I would say, so, Sachi, the first thing that I have learned from another colleague, Dr. Camara Jones, who works with us on Equitable Dinners as a member of the design team is, the first lesson or the thing to do is to have people ask the question of, how is racism functioning here, not when is it functioning. I'm sorry, not when is it functioning, but how is it functioning? Because what we find for most people who are individuals who do not identify as white is, all of us can tell you how it's functioning, not whether or not it is functioning. And most times white people are asking the question, well, when is it functioning? Versus really being aware that it is always functioning. And so if you can come to those groups, then the questions that you should be asking and preparing yourself for in terms of the responses is, how is racism functioning and what do we do about it? And then allowing for those groups to be able to have articulation around what they believe is necessary to address those issues of racism.
Aishah Rashied Hyman:
Thank you Terra. I'm gonna ask one more question because we are almost out of time. You talked about that exhaustion, and man oh man, that is so real. Because that-- I think about that quote, that the moral arc is long. You know, this is hard work, and this is generational work. These are not problems we're going to fix overnight, and maybe not even in our lifetime. So it does get exhausting, because we're spending so much time on it, some of us. So what do you do to keep motivated, and what do you say to your clients that hit that brick wall of just, gosh, enough already, do we still have to do this?
Terra Gay:
What I encourage most people -- and I've had these conversations, quite honestly, Aishah, with a number of people -- is, finding your circle of salvation. And that is, finding those people who encourage you to take care of yourself, finding those people who encourage you when you are discouraged by this work, finding those people who are your champions, who shout the loudest for you, who applaud you when nobody else is even caring about what you're doing. So to me, it is truly about finding your circle of salvation, no matter how small or large you make it. Having those people be clear that they are there to support you, but you are also a person who provides that support to them as well, understanding how you all keep each other afloat in the process. So that really and truly has been what has worked for me, and what I have encouraged other people to do for themselves as well.
Aishah Rashied Hyman:
Well, you almost made me cry a little bit there, because you have been most definitely a member of my circle of salvation. I'll share a real quick story before we go. Last year, this time last year, around this time last year after George Floyd was murdered, I was so, just, distraught, because I didn't know what to do with my frustration about inequity and racism that I deal with in my life, but particularly in my working life, in my professional life. And Terra Gay and several of my other friends from college, girlfriends from college, told me that I needed to do something with that energy and those feelings, and gave me some examples of some things that were happening in social media. And at the same time, Sachi reached out to me, and I just felt like it was a sign from heaven that this is what I needed to do, is become a part of Public Media For All. So thank you Terra for being part of my circle of salvation--
Terra Gay:
Likewise.
Aishah Rashied Hyman:
--my whole entire adult life. I love you so much--
Terra Gay:
Likewise. Love you right back.
Aishah Rashied Hyman:
--you keep me-- you're one of the folks who keep me encouraged. And also, I learned so much from you, from Equitable Dinners, being a facilitator and learning how to listen as we do this work, but also learning how to listen at home, in my-- you know, it just helps me in my whole entire life. So thank you Terra. Thank you to Public Media For All. Y'all are also so important to me as a part of this circle of salvation, because we certainly do need support in order to stay in this movement and stay encouraged. Thank you so much to our participants for being here. Y'all are part of the circle of salvation too. We certainly need to know that this is useful to the public media system, and this is useful to the folks who are doing the work. That's why we're here and that's why we continue to have this conversation in these webinars. And I got gotta bring JC Polk back to-- back to the pulpit. JC, before we wrap up, are there anything that we need to refresh, remind?
1:01:58
JC Polk:
No. In the Southern Baptist Church they tell us, know when it's done. And it's done. you don't try to follow-- you don't try to follow the sermon. That's it. So we would consider this, in that same spirit, the benediction. May you all be well, and know that we as Public Media For All, we are here to support and help you. You see the reference to the circle of salvation -- we are all here to do some great work where we all win. And so yes, I again would like to thank Lady Gay, new friend, great friend, Brother Anzio Williams, and thank all of you all who took the time out. We know it's the summertime and you could have been somewhere else, and you chose to do this, and so we really appreciate that. We look forward to the next time. there will be more. This is our quarterly webinar. This has been DEI Lessons Outside The Bubble. We thank you for being here. Take care and be well. [background music]
